*** Mark571 ***

[mark571]

The second laptop is the workhorse running Kismet on top of Knoppix 3.8.2 installed to the hard drive with a Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, a Mobile Mark 5.5 dBi mag mount antenna from Fab Corp, and a 2.4 GHz 802.11b/g 1 Watt Indoor Amplifier with 16 dB gain, and a Engenius Senao 200mw PCMCIA Card (2511-CD-PLUS-EXT2).

How do you hook this together? I have a rebranded 200mw Senao card [sonicwall 01-ssc-5510](2511-cd-plus) and currently just toss this up on my dashboard as I drive. The downside is this means I tend to get better reception from the houses on the right vs. the ones on the left as I drive down the street. Also Since I drive a large metal box, I dont see any access points once they pass abeam. I've wondered if this affects their placement on the WiGLE map. The GPS is a Garmin GPS35-PC OEM sensor on its mag mount base on the roof.

Im still running netstumbler, but after reading some of the posts above I think there is Kismet in my future once I get the other hardware sorted.
a PII 400 should be enough of a box right? I also have a P90 kicking arround some place too if that would hand the load,
I wouldnt have to worry about leaving it in the van all the time either.

TIA
i_do_dew

The two laptops are not tied together. One is running XP Pro and the other is running Linux. That's not to say they couldn't be connected, but I don't.

What you discover is only as good as your antenna setup and the WiGLE map placement is your vehicle's GPS location unless you drive a circle around the networks or pass on multiple sides so it can be triangulated. That's been discussed a lot and it always going to be an approximate location.

You'll want to verify your hardware against the hardware requirements of the version of Linux you choose. Do the research and you'll be OK. If you've never played with Linux, I'd recommend trying one of the live Distros like Knoppix. Kismet is already included.

[Dutch]

If you reread my message, I wasn't talking about the GPS file. I know that some of the GPS detections get folded into (and disappear from) the CSV and XML files, and that if the GPS receiver dies then the CSV and XML files will have detections (most likely sans coordinates) that aren't in the GPS file. On my own statistics, the CSV seems to always have a higher count than the XML.

Let me put it another way:
If one has a stable Kismet install and has uploaded a Kismet set in either of the following orders:

1. GPS, CSV, XML, CGWD
2. CSV, GPS, XML, CGWD

has one EVER seen an increment in New Networks with GPS or even Total New Discovered Networks on the XML and/or CGWD?[/b]

I allways upload in the order of .CSV, .XML, and .GPS. I've seen new detected networks with XML, a couple of times. Those times has been when there were problems with eithe GPSD, or if I killed the wrong instance of kismet_server, thereby exiting kismet_server by closing a pipe.

Uploading the .XML is an extra insurance IMHO, that I won't give up. By gzipping it doesn't take much extra time, and the processing on Wigle of .XML files goes PDQ compared to the .CSV and .GPS files. I feel it's worth uploading them, and will continue to do so.

Dutch

[i_do_dew]

*** LONG POST ALERT ***

The second laptop is the workhorse running Kismet on top of Knoppix 3.8.2 installed to the hard drive with a Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, a Mobile Mark 5.5 dBi mag mount antenna from Fab Corp, and a 2.4 GHz 802.11b/g 1 Watt Indoor Amplifier with 16 dB gain, and a Engenius Senao 200mw PCMCIA Card (2511-CD-PLUS-EXT2).

How do you hook this together? I have a rebranded 200mw Senao card [sonicwall 01-ssc-5510](2511-cd-plus) and currently just toss this up on my dashboard as I drive. The downside is this means I tend to get better reception from the houses on the right vs. the ones on the left as I drive down the street. Also Since I drive a large metal box, I dont see any access points once they pass abeam. I've wondered if this affects their placement on the WiGLE map. The GPS is a Garmin GPS35-PC OEM sensor on its mag mount base on the roof.

The two laptops are not tied together. One is running XP Pro and the other is running Linux. That's not to say they couldn't be connected, but I don't.

Ahh, I was unclear... I was refering to your use of the bridge/repeater/ext-antenna setup. I understand the external antenna (I already drive a wire brush) for an omni directional receive path. My directionality comment was because of how the notebook sits on my dash, the antenna is on the right side of the car with the notebook hiding (antenuating) the signal from the houses on my left. Since the triangulation is done in part by received signal strength I would think this would have bearing (no pun intended).

Do you just use a Serial Y cable to share the GPS signal? If So then I'll have to add another Y, or a second GPS receiver later this summer after another project.

I guess what I dont undserstand is what purpose does the bridge fulfill? I would think that would block your ability to see all SSID's and what their correct channels were. From what I previously read, it seemed everyone was connecting their Ext Antenna directly to the pcmcia card. The receive is quite good on the Senao cards to start with.

I'm running in auto mode though I have thought about forcing the card to 1 Mbps mode for the increased sensitivity. Would it probably play havoc with WiGLE's plotting though?

Some specs from the SonicWALL Long Range Wireless Card User’s Guide:
Range (Open Environment)
11 Mbps - 1476 ft. (450m)
5.5 Mbps - 1969 ft. (600m)
2 Mbps - 2461 ft. (750m)
1 Mbps - 3937 ft. (1200m)

RF Power Output: 23 dBm for FCC

Antenna Integrated with built-in diversity Sensitivity @FER=0.08
11 Mbps < -87 dBm
5.5 Mbps < -90 dBm
2 Mbps < -93 dBm
1 Mbps < -95 dBm

What you discover is only as good as your antenna setup and the WiGLE map placement is your vehicle's GPS location unless you drive a circle around the networks or pass on multiple sides so it can be triangulated. That's been discussed a lot and it always going to be an approximate location.

I'm familiar with the problem. It is at least in part, because of the amount of selective (cant remenber the term) accuracy? availability? that the GPS network is currently providing and how many sats the receiver has in view and their locations relative to you at the time. Since I've been hitting some nice narrow blocks with this stronger card I have been geting the required extra angles, but WiGLE doesnt like the slightly older NAD83 that the GPS-35PC uses, All of my points are within 75m though so it isnt too bad.

You'll want to verify your hardware against the hardware requirements of the version of Linux you choose. Do the research and you'll be OK. If you've never played with Linux, I'd recommend trying one of the live Distros like Knoppix. Kismet is already included.

I classify myself as an advanced user level *nix user though I'm partial to SysV syntax (learned on SGI-IRIX). Being self taught means I need to take out the rubber mallet to get some things working (for use on the machine or my head as needed). I'll probably be putting it on my PII 400 notebook which should be plenty to handle it and setting up a dual notebook configuration similar to yours since that makes sense and seems to work well.

Thanks again for all the help, switching to this better card has made my WiGLE stat change dramaticaly. I'm now 160 with GPS and 188 overall. not bad for a month of roaming. Although because I'm not currently keepping track of where I've driven seperatly, 1253 networks that I did back on the 8th some how didn't get referenced with the GPS data. So NOW I get to try and figure out where I drove that night. Of course when I do, I'll be re-driving it with the better card.

I_Do_Dew

PS: For something amusing take apart a Netgear MR314 Router if you can get ahold of one. I'll probably be posting something about this later.

[mark571]

Whoa. Read my setup again.

I'm running 2 laptops. One is my navigation box running XP Pro, Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, Netstumbler, and Delorme Street Atlas USA 2006.

The second laptop is the workhorse running Kismet on top of Knoppix 3.8.2 installed to the hard drive with a Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, a Mobile Mark 5.5 dBi mag mount antenna from Fab Corp, and a 2.4 GHz 802.11b/g 1 Watt Indoor Amplifier with 16 dB gain, and a Engenius Senao 200mw PCMCIA Card (2511-CD-PLUS-EXT2).

There are 2 BU-353 GPS pucks. One on each laptop. There is nothing shared between these two separate laptops except the 12 volt DC being piped into them.

As to the

bridge/repeater/ext-antenna setup

, there is no bridge/repeater? What I list above is what there is. Are you calling the amp a bridge? See http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?pro ... 269&page=1 It just amplifies the signals coming through the antenna to read weak signals better. Kismet is receive only. There is nothing being transmitted.

[i_do_dew]

As to the

bridge/repeater/ext-antenna setup

, there is no bridge/repeater? What I list above is what there is. Are you calling the amp a bridge? See http://www.fab-corp.com/product.php?pro ... 269&page=1 It just amplifies the signals coming through the antenna to read weak signals better. Kismet is receive only. There is nothing being transmitted.

Ahh!!!!!

[ccie4526]

I allways upload in the order of .CSV, .XML, and .GPS. I've seen new detected networks with XML, a couple of times.

FWIW, in my observations, I experimented with the order of file sending. In ALL cases where I sent the GPS file up first, there were NO new/additional discoveries in the XML or CSV files. If I sent either the XML or CSV files first, there would always be additional discoveries in the other files.

...Ron

[whitedice]

The second laptop is the workhorse running Kismet on top of Knoppix 3.8.2 installed to the hard drive with a Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, a Mobile Mark 5.5 dBi mag mount antenna from Fab Corp, and a 2.4 GHz 802.11b/g 1 Watt Indoor Amplifier with 16 dB gain, and a Engenius Senao 200mw PCMCIA Card (2511-CD-PLUS-EXT2).

How much of a difference does adding the amplifier make? I seem to get a lot with just a 7dbi mag antenna, a SMC 2532W-B 200mw PCMCIA card, and NO amplifier. Since kismet is receive only, wouldn't the amplifier just be boosting the signal readings between antenna to laptop, and not help with actual receiving?

[i_do_dew]

The second laptop is the workhorse running Kismet on top of Knoppix 3.8.2 installed to the hard drive with a Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, a Mobile Mark 5.5 dBi mag mount antenna from Fab Corp, and a 2.4 GHz 802.11b/g 1 Watt Indoor Amplifier with 16 dB gain, and a Engenius Senao 200mw PCMCIA Card (2511-CD-PLUS-EXT2).

How much of a difference does adding the amplifier make? I seem to get a lot with just a 7dbi mag antenna, a SMC 2532W-B 200mw PCMCIA card, and NO amplifier. Since kismet is receive only, wouldn't the amplifier just be boosting the signal readings between antenna to laptop, and not help with actual receiving?

The receive amp will amplify both signal an noise, however it may bring a signal that is close to the noise floor and below the receiver's sensitivity up above the receivers minimum sensitivity where it can be detected. The gain for a receive amp isnt additive to the antenna gain but think of it as a signal booster for marginal signals. I dont have any idea if it makes a difference stumbling, though the amount of sites that Mark hits/passes probably makes it a statistical probibility that it has helped him. If the gain is worth the cost is a different question.

Mark,
Have you scanned an area w/o the amp and then driven the same route with it on to see if there is a difference? in sites aquired? you would probably have to do each three times to asccount for radio variability/randomness on transmits.

[mark571]

The second laptop is the workhorse running Kismet on top of Knoppix 3.8.2 installed to the hard drive with a Globalsat BU-353 GPS puck, a Mobile Mark 5.5 dBi mag mount antenna from Fab Corp, and a 2.4 GHz 802.11b/g 1 Watt Indoor Amplifier with 16 dB gain, and a Engenius Senao 200mw PCMCIA Card (2511-CD-PLUS-EXT2).

How much of a difference does adding the amplifier make? I seem to get a lot with just a 7dbi mag antenna, a SMC 2532W-B 200mw PCMCIA card, and NO amplifier. Since kismet is receive only, wouldn't the amplifier just be boosting the signal readings between antenna to laptop, and not help with actual receiving?

The receive amp will amplify both signal an noise, however it may bring a signal that is close to the noise floor and below the receiver's sensitivity up above the receivers minimum sensitivity where it can be detected. The gain for a receive amp isnt additive to the antenna gain but think of it as a signal booster for marginal signals. I dont have any idea if it makes a difference stumbling, though the amount of sites that Mark hits/passes probably makes it a statistical probibility that it has helped him. If the gain is worth the cost is a different question.

Mark,
Have you scanned an area w/o the amp and then driven the same route with it on to see if there is a difference? in sites aquired? you would probably have to do each three times to asccount for radio variability/randomness on transmits.

Heaven forbid that I should post information to allow someone to get more networks discovered that they'd upload here and make Whitedice wait a little longer. http://www.wigle.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=935

Mr Dew, you are right on the nose. Yes, I did that some time back and posted the results with pics on Netstumbler.org. The results were all Kismet related.

[i_do_dew]

Heaven forbid that I should post information to allow someone to get more networks discovered that they'd upload here and make Whitedice wait a little longer. http://www.wigle.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=935

Mr Dew, you are right on the nose. Yes, I did that some time back and posted the results with pics on Netstumbler.org. The results were all Kismet related.

I shall have to search for that!!!!

Though, I wonder, if you ran stumbler in an active polling mode, and then ran kismet for logging, would you get even more hosts? As in, is the 100ms beacon time set on the AP, between beacons or the length of the becon frame (as I thought it was).

This would net you all of the passive hosts out there as well as forcing a response for an otherwise idle AP that has broadcast turned on.
You would of course have to program kismet to ignore your Stumbler MAC, otherwise your logs would be huge with redundant data.

[whitedice]

Mark,

man, I was just joking with ya, since you are kicking everyone's butt this month. I'm just trying to figure out what is going to maximize my stumbling, and if the amp is worth it.

I only wish I could have found 50k+! I have to do serious navigating through neighborhoods to get my numbers. Which I've given up using Street Atlas, as my track never stays "on the road", so I use a program that puts my location and track on Google Earth. My next task is to see if I can figure out how to run dual PCMCIAs (one SMC 2532B-W and one Senao 2511 CD+ ext2) at the same time scanning different channels, though I have to get another antenna.

I would seriously be interested in what you have to say about the difference in amp vs. no amp.

Edit: I didn't think to look on Netstumbler's forum, b/c it's netstumbler, but I found your amp test thread.

[mark571]

No worries.

If you do some heavy reading of old threads or if you've been reading them here and other places for a year or more you'd know that a lot of the heavy producers run amps with Kismet. It makes a difference. Everyone has to decide for themselves if the initial cost is worth it. It's a hobby, not a job. I reasoned it would save me miles in the long run and pay for the up front cost of the amp. But again, being a hobby, you're always going to spend the $'s that your level of interest will allow. If I'm going to do the drive, I want the maximum detection for every mile I drive. It works.

My progression?

In the beginning, there was curiosity. Marius said let there be NetStumbler used with an ORiNOCO Classic Gold card and networks were logged and uploaded to WiGLE.NET and it was good.

More curiosity and desire for more networks logged lead to Linux, Dragorn, and Kismet. More than double the amount of networks per mile were logged and uploaded to WiGLE.NET and it was real good.

More curiosity and desire for more networks logged lead to the purchase of an amp and again the number of networks logged per mile and uploaded to WiGLE.NET doubled and this was really, really good.

More curiosity and desire for more networks logged lead to different antenna combinations, multiple cards, multiple laptops, and many combinations of the above which lead to even more networks logged per mile and uploaded to WiGLE.NET and this is really, really, really good.